MWF

please let me unload even if it doesn't make sense.

the phrase that has come to mind too often lately is 'a crisis of faith'. i don't know exactly where that comes from and i suppose i doesn't matter. i am in trouble.

i sit in church with my ladies (work) every blessed saturday. st augustine's 5p mass. we go because they like church, they like the songs, it's a nice bonding time for all of us. we hold hands, we sing. the other motivation was my own lack of church experience. i wanted to get back to it.

i grew up lutheran. i know the litergy, the creeds, i knew them by heart. maybe i understood the meaning, sometmes just recited without thinking. i 'graduated' meaning i went through the catechism classes and was 'confirmed' in 8th grade. i was praised for my understanding of the Word, of Calvinism, of Luther.

i left my faith in college and did my own stupid things.

Now, i profess my Christianity, I tell people I believe Jesus walked this earth, rose from the dead.

And yet sitting in this church every week i wonder how fantastic in a crazy way this story is. how Jesus' father lived and acted on DREAMS, and Mary the same. He walked on water. He performed miracles of providing sight to the blind, redemption to the whore, on and on and on.
And his disciples were granted the power to provide miracles as well.

How can this really be true? Why can't I see things like that now? Why were these miracles and speeches done then and not now?

I think that I have seen the work of the Holy Spirit.... but how much of that is just dumb luck?

I am now taking a history class - civilization up to 1600. this is not helping my faith cause. so many stories of the great flood, of sending jeopardized male children down the river in woven baskets, the delivery of rules for life on basalt tablets and through burning objects similar to the burning bush have been recorded in other cultures over and over.

the Hebrew idea of monotheism is new. does that make it true?

the idea that a god can come back from the dead, at this point, is already well established. the idea of an afterlife is also established in a happy continuation of life (egyptians) and the concept of hell is not developed.

i don't want to lose my faith - and i don't want to be stupid.

i realize that people of faith have nothing to lose. so what is my problem?

shit.

ok I hope this makes some sense ok?

The thing it comes down to is faith. having faith in God and Jesus. Believing without seeing.

I personally believe there are miracles everyday. Babies are a miracle. murderers (seriously) repenting is a miracle. I guess it depends on your definition of miracle. But to me, all those things are miracles.

I have felt like you do SO many times. I just keep going, knowing that it is the devil talking to me, and that it's not the truth.

I hope that helped SOMEWHAT.

I think at some point everyone has felt the way you do. Especially if you are one to delve into world history or science. It becomes difficult to believe every single Bible story we were ever taught. However, as Sewcute said, it is all about faith.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to question what you are taught. Don't just take a pastor/preacher/priest's words from his sermon - read the scriptures for yourself and let your heart decide how to use that information. I honestly haven't been to church in years now, and I do not feel my faith is faltered because of it, but stronger because I do not have someone telling me things and pushing things on me that I honestly do not believe in. I look at the church leaders more as guides, to help get me through the parts I don't understand on my own, but certainly do not take their word as the final say.

While I find it a good thing they have you learn everything and practice, practice, practice...I also think that the repetition/routine can be bad for one's faith. As you said, it gets to a point where you are just doing the things out of habit that you should be doing out of faith - I think sometimes that is how people's faith slips away from them & they don't notice until they stop to think about it one day. So while those things aren't bad things, I think it is important to do random things frequently to keep your faith healthy.

When it comes to science & history, I like to find a middle ground - and I do not feel bad about it because I understand that my mind is but a simple human one, and it needs to be able to correlate something I can't even fathom with something that is totally rational. Evolution vs Creationism, for example. I believe there is no way, as humans, to grasp a concept of time in terms of God's work, so we have no choice but to describe it with human concepts. So when I read that God created everything in 7 days, I do not think of it in terms of our 7 days. Really, in human time, it could have been thousands or millions of years (God always was and always will be, so this is feasible) - so the fact that there is scientific proof of evolution does not deter my belief that God created all the animals and man - I just think there was a lot of time in between there for things to adapt, etc...

Sorry this is long - I will wrap it up with this: it is ok to feel the way you do and think what you are thinking, as long as you find your way back from it. I am a firm believer that we are all sinners, all sins are equal, and all sins are forgivable (except that one about denying the holy spirit, but I think that's only because you have to accept the Holy Spirit to be driven to repent in the first place, and if you don't repent you can't be forgiven). I don't know that any of that is helpful, but it is a riveting topic & I am glad you brought it up (though I am sorry you are feeling the way you are).

thanks so much for the replies.

i'm mulling and absorbing and thinking - and praying.

i'll reply further after some of this soaks in.

one miracle for me to remember:

tell me a miracle story [Jul. 20th, 2006|06:47 pm]
i took a bike ride on a very hot, windy day. wanted to see planes at the airport and so went off the bike trail on to a gravel side road -- with hills. it was pretty hard.

at the top of the last hill i rested, watched planes, but was still in the sun. (idiot)

somehow made it back to the park. by this time i'm so hot i'm starting to feel like throwing up. i coast to the nearest picnic table i see and collapse. i have some water left but that goes quickly down my throat and on top of my head.

there's a woman at the next table - alone, reading a small book. she checks on me and *insists* on walking to the shelter to get me water. i can hardly refuse. i say 'God bless you' -- and i meant it!

we talked for more than 1/2 hour about God, the Bible, things we tend to overlook in the Bible these days just because we think we're so modern that not all the rules still apply to us. New Testament, mind you.

i have no doubt that if there was going to be someone there to look out for me, He made sure it was her. it was a blessing. it gave me much to ponder for days.

nothing flashy, but i know He sent me an angel.

and another miracle i need to remember.

the miracle of brittney [Aug. 18th, 2006|12:58 am]
i was living in columbus ohio. i had the best apt i've ever had - loved it's french doors and shallow kitchen sink and no counter space and wood floors. it was the second best place i ever lived. and then i bought a house. a big 3 bedroom 'barn' with a bad furnace and large windows and pocket doors to the 'dining room'. i fell in love immediately.

the neighbors next door were wonderful - happy fixer-upers who worked night and day renovating their treasure. on the other side, nice neighbors who smoked generic cigarettes and drank milwaukee's best day and night on the porch. calm, sedated, genial people with a car as big as a boat in the back yard. the man purposefully mowed down my new ground cover plantings -- trying to be helpful. he thought they were weeds. that got sorted out with no problem, of course.

the elder got cancer and came home from the hospital looking as though he had been literally fried by the treatments. he was red as a beet and bald and weak. he died soon after and the rest of the family moved.

enter a young woman and her very young daughter. brittney --- me neighbor. the mom appears to have no work and is visited often, and late at night by loud people. men with cars that boom music so loud that the other neighbors start talking amongst each other. a man parks his car in her back yard and i am at my washing machine in the basement -- and it's vibrating to the beat of his car's music. these are not nice people. i see them pissing on the side of her house - and mine. i see and hear the beer bottles tossed over the fence into my back yard. when i am feeling brave, i toss them back over and love the sound of breaking glass.

i begin to see so many cars, staying so short a time. drugs are not in question -- they are a fact. i don't have an air conditioner in my bedroom window yet so i hear so much. trash talk mostly. some about me. much about partying. and i get mad, and then madder. and i finally call the cops. and the detective - who tells me i won't ever be named - asks for liscense plate numbers and such. and i gladly comply because i've just had what i consider the final straw -- i've seen a man pass off drugs in the street to a passing car. pass the drugs, pass the money - done in seconds. and this is in front of my home.

in the mean time i've come to know the woman's daughter, brittney. she is small, maybe 4, and beautiful because all children are. and she is full of it, full life. she calls me 'neighbor'. we know each other's names and she chooses to define over and over again -- you're my neighbor. yes, i am -- and you're my neighbor too. and so it goes on and on. hey neighbor! hey neibhor to you too sweetie.

and then it starts that she comes to me in the afternoon or evening scratching or knocking at my front door. asking for food. she's hungry and her mother clearly hates me. and at first i'm not comfortable taking her in - God help me - i'm scared of her mother and her friends.

and then, of course, i feed her but am way too cautious in doing so. i don't want to get caught by the mom. and then i come to think that i need to take this child. i talk to my own mom and tell her that if i was to do the right thing i'd pack a couple bags and leave everything in my house and take this child back home to iowa. yes, i considered kidnapping her. and to this day i wonder if that might have been the right decision.

i broke my leg. at work. stuff happens. and my mom came to take care of me for a week. got me fixed up to take care of myself with 1 leg for the next five weeks. we had a wonderful time together! and brittney visited me. she sat on the bed with me and my cast and asked all the logical questions: is there blood? does it hurt? how come it's hurt but no blood? we explain what we can about hurt and inside hurts and blood or not. and she cuddles and talks to me.

i love this kid. did i mention that once i was at the washing machine and she crouched down at my old house 10 inch above ground window and yells 'HEY NEIGHBOR" scared my almost speechless. i love this kid.

and then we graduate to a couple times where it's night - 9p or more and she's at my door. once it's because the mom has been cut and there's a paramedic squad at the house and she's afraid and cold. i'm still scared of the mom and we huddle in my coat on my front steps.

and then i hear a couple things here and there - at night - from the mom. 'there's no reason why brit is this sick' 'i'm going to stop smoking pot in front of brit'

and so my busy season at work goes on - i work from morning to 2a for several months. and then when my event is televised and over - i sleep. and the mother knocks on my door in may ..... 'i thought i should let you know. brittney liked you, she always called you her neighbor. she passed away last night.'

what?

the mom says things that don't make sense about britt's stomach and ........ it doesn't matter. she didn't understand what happened and i'm sure i don't want to know.

so the funeral is packed front to back. i look in the side door and think i can't do this - can't even walk in. i'm lost.

and then my other neighbor from 2 doors down appears in the hallway. we see each other and embrace. she puts her arm firmly across my back and tells me to go in. i know that i can't --- and she guides me forward. we are at the open casket -- this angel....... so small, so beautiful -- aching to hear her say 'hey, neighbor'.
i shudder and shrink back. and this woman holds on to me. she says 'you have to turn around and say hello to her mother.'

'i can't i can't -- she hates me. i can't.'

and this angel says 'you have to' and she is still holding me around the waist and she turns me around.... and the mother stands up - and walks the several steps to me and ... hugs me. and thanks me for coming.

she's out of her mind from grief. and i hug her back and cry how sorry i am for this loss.

.... the angel/neighbor and i talk just once or twice after that. she is raising Tony, a wonderful young man and a good singer. and she says she doesn't know why she was in the hallway that day at that moment. and i know that i would never have been able to walk into the room if not for her. we agree that God put us together.

i still miss her. and i wish i had done the right thing by her.

sewcute wrote:ok I hope this makes some sense ok?

The thing it comes down to is faith. having faith in God and Jesus. Believing without seeing.

I personally believe there are miracles everyday. Babies are a miracle. murderers (seriously) repenting is a miracle. I guess it depends on your definition of miracle. But to me, all those things are miracles.

I have felt like you do SO many times. I just keep going, knowing that it is the devil talking to me, and that it's not the truth.

I hope that helped SOMEWHAT.

For a lot of people it is faith, stating "you just have to believe", which is something I felt for some time, until I changed the way my life works... logic.

To me, the belief in all that happened is a simple matter of logic. All the things required for life to be possible, with so many things that could go wrong, yet some how do not. The fact that complex living organism require complex structures that can only be made by other complex structures... how "it is a small world" when in actuality it is no where close to it... yet it manages to be so. So many things in existance that fit together, wonderfully. Sounds like design to me, and last time I checked, things do not design themselves. Of course, I have come into conflict with my own self and my original views with God, not doubting God, but what happens when one dies. It has disturbed me a little, however, I feel the power of God has helped out a lot with me getting through it. There is a lot more said by other parties, I will have to come back to it.

Oh y'all better believe I'll get around to this. heh

ditzwill wrote:Oh y'all better believe I'll get around to this. heh

i look forward to it

monkeybone wrote:please let me unload even if it doesn't make sense.

I'm pretty sure I only make sense like 70% of the time so no worries here.

monkeybone wrote:the phrase that has come to mind too often lately is 'a crisis of faith'. i don't know exactly where that comes from and i suppose i doesn't matter. i am in trouble.

How in trouble depends on who Jesus is to you.

monkeybone wrote:i sit in church with my ladies (work) every blessed saturday. st augustine's 5p mass. we go because they like church, they like the songs, it's a nice bonding time for all of us. we hold hands, we sing. the other motivation was my own lack of church experience. i wanted to get back to it.

You wanted to get back to it because you feel that going to church is the right thing or because you wanted to fellowship with other believers and worship God?

monkeybone wrote:i grew up lutheran. i know the litergy, the creeds, i knew them by heart. maybe i understood the meaning, sometmes just recited without thinking. i 'graduated' meaning i went through the catechism classes and was 'confirmed' in 8th grade. i was praised for my understanding of the Word, of Calvinism, of Luther.

All well and good, but knowledge is different than a relationship.

monkeybone wrote:i left my faith in college and did my own stupid things.

hehehe I found my faith in college! Of course it was Bible College and it was in my late 20s... hehehe Everyone goes thru a rebellion, it's Satan's way.

monkeybone wrote:Now, i profess my Christianity, I tell people I believe Jesus walked this earth, rose from the dead.

Satan knows and believes the same things...

monkeybone wrote:And yet sitting in this church every week i wonder how fantastic in a crazy way this story is. how Jesus' father lived and acted on DREAMS, and Mary the same. He walked on water. He performed miracles of providing sight to the blind, redemption to the whore, on and on and on. And his disciples were granted the power to provide miracles as well.

I like it better that the story *is* so crazy. Plus it had to be crazy to fulfill the prophecy. No matter what proof Christ provided, the pharises wouldn't believe and kept asking him to give proof. The man turned water into wine and healed the sick and they wanted more proof.

monkeybone wrote:How can this really be true? Why can't I see things like that now? Why were these miracles and speeches done then and not now?

Nothing in the Bible has ever been disproved. As a matter of fact the more archeologists find, the more it is proved. God calls people in dreams and visions even today. There are true stories of people traveling to different countries to find a Christian church to find out more about this "Jesus" guy they've been dreaming about. Miracles are too often overlooked or disbelieved or miscredited. The "religious" idiots and kooks that wouldn't know a Bible if it hit them in the head are the ones that get the media attention so anyone that has anything intelligent to say about God or Jesus or Christianity is ignored or just lumped into the same group of idiots.

monkeybone wrote:I think that I have seen the work of the Holy Spirit.... but how much of that is just dumb luck?

Zero. Oh yeah, you can chalk up exactly zero instances of anything up to coincidence or dumb luck. Everything good that happens is of God. My entire life is a string of craziness that only makes sense when you look at it from the stand point of God working on me and working with the things that I've done and working with the things that people have done to me to be for His good.

monkeybone wrote:I am now taking a history class - civilization up to 1600. this is not helping my faith cause. so many stories of the great flood, of sending jeopardized male children down the river in woven baskets, the delivery of rules for life on basalt tablets and through burning objects similar to the burning bush have been recorded in other cultures over and over.

I would be more surprised if there *weren't* instances of the same types of stories in other cultures and mythologies. Considering these things actually happened, it only makes sense that people who weren't Jewish would try to wrap their own heads around the events and make their own stories to make sense of what had happened. Also, the stories of the old testament were passed along verbally before and after they were ever written down. I'm sure there were eaves droppers that got their own version of events and started telling their own stories with enough twists in them to credit their own gods.

monkeybone wrote:the Hebrew idea of monotheism is new. does that make it true?

Nope, what makes it true is that it is. Technically, it's the oldest form of religion since it was the first. Adam and Eve knew there was only one God.

monkeybone wrote:the idea that a god can come back from the dead, at this point, is already well established. the idea of an afterlife is also established in a happy continuation of life (egyptians) and the concept of hell is not developed.

Again, not surprising due to it being actual history. As far as the egyptian concept of no hell, better for Satan if people don't believe there is a hell cuz then there is no reason to be saved from it.

monkeybone wrote:i don't want to lose my faith - and i don't want to be stupid.

You can't lose your faith if you truly have it. As far as being stupid...I live my life knowing that a good majority of people think I'm quite insane or idiotic for believing the things that I do. Even people whom I hold dear hurt me deeply with things they say about 'idiotic' or 'stupid' beliefs and ways of thinking. "Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise." 1 Corinthians 3:18

monkeybone wrote:i realize that people of faith have nothing to lose. so what is my problem?

Questioning is good. In one of the books of the new testament, Paul (I think it's Paul anyway) commends people for searching the scripture to verify what he was saying instead of just eating it up blindly. God gave you reason so that you could use it. The only thing I can think to answer this question with is: Have you truely accepted Jesus Christ into your life and heart as your Lord and Savior, or did you just learn everything in church because you were supposed to?

monkeybone wrote:shit.

No thanx. hehehe

Well, that only took me my entire work day. I hope I made some sense. I may even go thru everyone's replies to see what I have to say about them. However, not right now. I want to go home.

thank you D.

thank you for startling me with some of this reply...... the truth can be hard sometimes.

thanks to others for replies as well.

this is a process, not a discussion. i'll get back to it

monkeybone wrote:thank you D.

thank you for startling me with some of this reply...... the truth can be hard sometimes.

thanks to others for replies as well.

this is a process, not a discussion. i'll get back to it

The truth can be very difficult for any human to take. We do not want to think of our own selves as being anything less than perfect. Some of the better humans in this world, who are compassionate and wonderful, can still find truth of the self difficult to properly process.

i am trying to take this to heart more and more ...... there is a big difference between faith and proof.

don't chide, please. i *know* this is fundamental. and yet it's something i need to come back to.

being in a history class that eventually covered Jesus' time on earth, his discpiles, Mary, the growth of the Christian church from many sects ..... it has been an avenue to explore the doubts i've had since a child.

this class helped me to look at what can be proved and what cannot. even my former Christian professor says that early Christian writings were destroyed during persecution periods of at least 3 emporers.

there is so much we will never know from conventional history.

This is very true, and also, it is the winners who many times write the history books (X3).